
On Monday MAN, OH MAN: Writing M/M Fiction for Kinks and Ca$h goes live at Fictionwise And while the book is not being published through Loose Id, I did interview Loose Id authors, editors and the amazing Treva Hart extensively, so I thought it might be all right to share a snippet.
When I was researching this book, one of the complaints I repeatedly heard from readers and reviewers had to do with the lack of believable and meaningful conflict in M/M fiction. So today I thought I'd give you all something to fight about.
Okay, you’ve got your characters. It’s time to think about how you’re going to tell their story. Story = Plot.
When we start talking about conflict and goals and motivation — the building blocks of plot — a lot of writers get that glazed look on their faces. So listen up. Next to character, the single most important element of your book is the plot.
A story is not made up of random things happening. That’s called real life; it doesn’t always make for good fiction. Let alone happy endings. No, the events or scenes of a story evolve naturally — organically — from earlier events or scenes. They have to make sense, they have to be there for a reason — you’re not just filling space between sex scenes. And in order for these events or scenes within your story to make sense, you have to plan them. (This is why an outline is such a good idea.)
The way it works is that each event or scene will complicate the situation between your protagonists a little more. The divide between them will seem to grow wider and wider with each scene or event. Conflict and problems and frustration will rise right along with sexual tension and attraction. Your characters are falling deeper in love — whether they like it or not — while the obstacles between them mount.
Now, you might be thinking that this is the opposite way it should work. There are plenty of obstacles to any two people building a life together, and you’ve got two great guys who, in theory, should be perfect for one another. Isn’t your job to swiftly move them around the potential roadblocks and get them together? Of course it is, but getting them together is called the ending. Your story is over at that point. So unlike real life, your job isn’t to smooth the course of true love starting on page one. Your job is to create enough problems and obstacles to make up a story about how these two met, fell in love, and finally worked out the differences between them so they could have a Happily Ever After. It’s called telling a story.
That said, plot is where storytelling gets tricky for a lot of M/M writers, even those currently selling stories. Conflict, in particular, is a weak point for most M/M writers. Yep, the majority of M/M writers do not understand the difference between genuine conflict and contrived bickering between characters. If you can master this concept, you’ll have an edge over your fellow writers.
There is no story without conflict.
Conflict is the clash of your characters opposing goals and motivations — their hopes, dreams, ambitions, and desires running headlong into someone else’s fears, insecurities, plans, and prejudices. So, yeah, your characters may squabble about a variety of things, but the squabbling needs to result from something more dramatic and fundamental than he’s a neatnik falling hard for a slob — not that the Odd Couple dynamic can’t work; it’s the stuff of romantic comedy, but at the heart of those differences should be something profound.
In far too many stories, the only conflict or obstacle to the lovers’ happy ending is the external conflict provided by the genre plot: amnesia, competing for the same job, marrying for money (or to hide sexuality), a tornado or a tidal wave. That’s fine as far as it goes — but it doesn’t go very far. Obstacles have to be complex enough to believably keep two smart, rational, well-suited men apart from each other — and this distance has to be emotional as well as physical.
A competently executed romance plot combines external (situational) and internal (personal) conflict.
An example of external conflict would be found in my novel Fatal Shadows when Homicide Detective Jake Riordan suspects bookseller Adrien English of murder. That’s an external conflict supplied by the plot. Jake’s suspicion is a barrier to his growing awareness of and attraction to Adrien. Another potentially final barrier is that Adrien in being stalked. An HEA is contingent on his survival. Both of these are external (situational) conflicts and complications.
External conflicts are relatively easy to resolve.
The real barrier to Adrien and Jake’s happiness is Jake’s conflicted feelings about his own sexuality. Jake is a closeted cop, and he has no intention of leaving the safety of that closet. That’s an enormous obstacle to finding an HEA with Adrien. It is an internal (personal) conflict driven by Jake’s personality and character, and it dogs their relationship throughout the course of the series.
Usually the most intense and dramatic conflicts will be the internal ones. But — please take note here —
You need both internal and external conflict in order to write a satisfying romance.
One detail: remember not to cook up conflict so destructive or insurmountable that you’re unable to resolve it believably within your allotted timeframe. The reader will work with you, but you’ve got to do the heavy lifting. Some of this has to do with pacing. If you throw a gigantic and disastrous point of contention between your characters in the final third of the book, you’re unlikely to be able to resolve this without rushing — something readers resent. The successful working out of problems and differences is part of what readers find so emotionally satisfying; if you cheat them on this, they won’t believe in your HEA – or even your HFN (Happy For Now).
Romance is character-driven. Romance is all about emotion. So the best conflicts are going to be emotional ones — character-driven ones. Typical issues driving internal conflict include trust, control, self-image, sexuality.
In itself, Gosh, he’s cute but he’s a vampire! is not enough conflict. Not for fiction, anyway. Real life, yeah, that could be complicated. Remember, fiction is not real life. Fiction is bigger — and better — than real life. The best fictional conflicts result in one protagonist fighting himself and his attraction to the other protagonist. So our plot becomes Gosh, he’s cute but he’s a vampire — and I’ve sworn my life to destroying all vampires. This time it’s personal.
It’s got to be personal, or else the conflict devolves into nothing more than heated intellectual debate, and your characters spend pages bickering. That gets old fast. We expect mature, intelligent, strong-willed people to disagree, and to work their differences out. Your challenge is to make it difficult for them to work those differences out. Take a subject like the outing of public figures. A lot of gay men disagree on whether it’s right to forcibly out public figures; that’s an intellectual disagreement. But suppose one of your protags is a reclusive, closeted actor, and the other is a crusading reporter for a gay magazine. Now they both have something to lose. Now it’s personal — and painful.
And the main reason it’s painful is because of a little something called sexual tension. Sexual tension is the physical desire characters feel for each other but are prevented from acting on because of all that external and internal conflict. The main ingredients are physical awareness — sexual attraction — and conflict.
Questions or comments?
57 comments:
Excellent post and describing exactly the issues I have with much of the m/m currently available (and the regular 'romantic' suspense, which I refuse to read).
I might quibble with your assertion that external plot is always necessary, but it depends on what and how much exactly you require in that department.
The best m/m, matter of fact one of the best romances, I've ever read has very little in external plot (Jules Jones, Lord and Master) and I love it for that particularly, because it's all about the characters' motivation, their place in life and how they see themselves.
I've seen a review complaining that it was boring because nothing was happening and I totally disagree because there are so many fabulous internal things going on and the story was completely believable and compelling to me.
I've read other m/m where the setup alone was giving me hives (you don't get elected sheriff in a small rural cowboy town if you are openly gay, throwing in the token hate crime as the conflict, just doesn't cut it). Which doesn't mean I cannot enjoy a story like that if the rest of the writing makes sense, but much eye-rolling is guaranteed.
I hope lots of m/m writers read your book and learn from it. The excerpt you provided definitely hits the nail on the head!
I find it particularly interesting that you say writers find conflict a problem in m/m romance, although you go on to explain why and that 'bickering' is not enough. That was one of the...Well I won't say 'easy' things that I wrote into Snow Angel, but I just got into my guys heads. I understood them so completely, I knew their conflicts and I found that much easier to do than I have with male/female characters. Saying that, I think it's a question of truly understanding what that conflict is and why the character is motivated to act the way they do. My external plot was quite light, or at least it felt so to me, and most of my book was emotionally driven. I guess I did something right because even though the sex scenes are hot, readers (and reviewers) vent on how I tore them apart emotionally and in that maybe we have the answer to whatever genre or relationship you are writing about.
Love the concept of this book. Wish you every luck with it.
Hey there, GrowlyCub!
Personally, I think the best stories combine internal and external conflict -- but I'm very much attached to a lot of plot. Which is probably why I always want some kind of mystery or crime or adventure to hang my romance on.
In theory I agree with you that every story doesn't need both, and depending on the length of the story there might not be enough room for both -- and in fact, in the now legendary writing book, I actually go in to a few exceptions. But generally speaking, for me, I need both -- maybe that's because I've read a few too many books where the internal conflict just wasn't believable or strong enough for me?
I don't think I've read Jules' book, so I can't speak to that one. I do agree with you that if the internal conflicts are powerful enough, external conflict may not be necessary.
My external plot was quite light, or at least it felt so to me, and most of my book was emotionally driven.
Sharon, I think this is very much the key. A romance is the journey of two people coming together. Now the two people could walk down a smooth path littered by rose petals and sunshine -- but that's not much of a story. It can be pleasant to read. Especially in a shorter format, but its probably not going to rivet anyone to the page -- or remain in the reader's memory for long.
Hi Josh!
And that's the reason why I haven't tried your books yet, although I'm attracted and want to see how a male written m/m differs from that written by a female author. This unwillingness has very little to do with you, however, but with my personal reading history and tastes.
I'm a long time romance reader and I really got turned off by the romantic suspense stuff (partly because of writing issues, partly because of writer attitude, I hold a grudge, I do).
More often than not the suspense plots seemed to me an excuse to skimp on the emotional character development. A la it's easier to fill up 50 pages with a car chase than make the love story believable.
I resent the idea that I wasn't good enough as a reader any more and that appealing to a broader audience by including suspense plot lines/shifting the focus from the relationship to the suspense plot was desirable for romance authors.
To me that is inherently saying that pure romance is inferior because it appeals to a narrower audience aka women. And having had to defend my reading preferences against ridicule for so many years, it felt like a betrayal for authors to go out and basically say 'yes, I want to be better than romance and if you don't care for it, tough shit, I already got my million dollar mansion with your romance dollars' (I'll let you all guess which romance turned suspense author I'm referring to).
Can we say hot button? :)
I doesn't mean that I haven't enjoyed romances with external plots, but a little bit of me always feels that there would have been more time for the characters if all that other stuff hadn't happened.
I stopped reading romance for several years and just came back to it last June, but I'm back with a vengeance and having a blast. :)
One thing I have found though is that I have very specific tastes and I'm much less likely to experiment than I used to (must be a sign of impending old age, grin).
I'd love to hear a male take on Lord and Master. It works perfectly for me as a female.
More often than not the suspense plots seemed to me an excuse to skimp on the emotional character development. A la it's easier to fill up 50 pages with a car chase than make the love story believable.
Now I'm going to surprise you, because I would agree with a lot of what you're saying. In fact, I will go one (credibility-shattering step) further.
A lot of M/M writers could improve their craft, their understanding of internal/external conflit, how to build and draw out sexual and romantic tension, if they'd do some serious, analytical reading of classic heterosexual romance.
Those old writers understood that the fundamental thing in a romance is the clash of character. It's not really about the hero trying to force the heroine out of her stately family home, it's about the hero overcoming the heroine's resistance to HIM.
Okay, maybe not the best example, but I think you know what I'm getting at.
The fun part in M/M fiction is the characters and their relationship. Everything else is just framework.
I agree, Josh, and not just the m/m authors, but a bunch of the new and older m/f romance authors, too.
Darn, you aren't supposed to make me like you... now I'll have to go out and buy a romantic suspense m/m by you. :) Which one would you recommend for a suspense-phobe like me?
Well, let's see. I don't want you to pay for something you might be disappointed in. Why don't you contact me off list and I'll send you a free story? How's that?
Go through my website:
http://www. joshlanyon. com
(without the spaces obviously)
The fun part in M/M fiction is the characters and their relationship. Everything else is just framework.
And the fact that men are much more open to sexual adventure than women. Which will get me stoned to death over here, I'm sure. But I love m/m because there is no virgin/whore angst. The sex is part of the emotional story and not the conflict itself. Phew. Does that even make sense? I need to post on that......
hm.....
Oddly enough, I was just thinking about this today because of a discussion with a friend who said she prefers external conflict that the m/m pair must fight together. Which, fine, but that does not a romance story make--as you so eloquently point out.
The odd thing is, I'll hear the people who want no conflict between the pair also say they are relationship-focused--that that is why they read m/m stories. But...how can there be a relationship "story" with no conflict/obstacle to the relationship? And, as you said, the most convincing and satisfyingly concluded conflicts are internal in nature. It really puzzles me.
Even in those genres that don't focus on relationships, the most satisfying reads tend to include internal conflict and character development. That is, to my mind, the very root of storytelling Can it be that some readers just don't notice that? Well, yes, I suppose so, as baffling as that seems to me. *g*
Anyway, great post!
And the fact that men are much more open to sexual adventure than women. Which will get me stoned to death over here, I'm sure. But I love m/m because there is no virgin/whore angst.
Uh oh, what are you doing rousing the rabble after I told you they needed their rest?
I'm not sure that I agree with that comment; what I think is true is that for men there are not the same risks and consequences of sexual adventuring. Not that there are none, but physical strength between the partners is more likely to be even, there's no risk of pregnancy...there's not the same societal attitudes towards a sexually adventurous man (gay or straight).
So I think that part of it might be a bit freeing for women to read about. But I'd love to hear more thoughts on this. Very interesting thought, Sweetbea.
Since I'm Josh Lanyon's biggest fan, in a nice way, I would recommend The Dark Horse, since most readers of romantic suspense love this... but for those of us who have already passed the so-called gateway Lanyon reads, and are ready for the hard stuff, nothing compares to the Adrien English series, you'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll sort of stalk on the internet telling him to write faster...
That said, I love your take on conflict, and I think you nail it when you discuss internal and external conflict and the need to drive between the two... It wasn't until I really got that that my work had any resonance for me. Before that, I tended to like me guys to just like each other. I didn't want anyone to be mean.
Now, the conflict I use determines the basic structure of everything. It can't be cleared up with a phone call or a rational discussion. Sometimes it can't be cleared up at all, but the parties agree that it's worth living with discomfort.
Luv, luv, luv it.
Abstractrx
Even in those genres that don't focus on relationships, the most satisfying reads tend to include internal conflict and character development. That is, to my mind, the very root of storytelling Can it be that some readers just don't notice that? Well, yes, I suppose so, as baffling as that seems to me. *g*
So many great points in one post!
But...what you've said here. Yes. A character study, for example. If there's no growth, no movement within the character...what is there to study? And how do you get growth or movement without conflict of some kind?
Oooh, Lisabea as usual you are so insightful... No virgin/whore, but lots and lots of innocence lost/betrayed... found again, returned through redemption.
The odd thing is, I'll hear the people who want no conflict between the pair also say they are relationship-focused--that that is why they read m/m stories. But...how can there be a relationship "story" with no conflict/obstacle to the relationship? And, as you said, the most convincing and satisfyingly concluded conflicts are internal in nature. It really puzzles me.
I KNOW. Believe me, we are in perfect accord on this one. Sometimes I wonder if these people understand what's even meant by conflict? Maybe they do think it's all about pointless bickering. Or maybe they just can't take the tension, but...the happy ending, the story resolution is so much sweeter, so much more resonant and meaningful if its won.
Like any prize. It means more if you had to work for it.
That said, I love your take on conflict, and I think you nail it when you discuss internal and external conflict and the need to drive between the two... It wasn't until I really got that that my work had any resonance for me. Before that, I tended to like me guys to just like each other. I didn't want anyone to be mean.
Very funny that you would mention this. When I first first started writing "romance" novels I would basically write about two really attractive, smart, nice guys who met each other, and got along great and...kept getting along great...and...moved in together and met each other's families and...had sex and went to brunch and...
And I couldn't understand why a) no one wanted to buy these stories, and b) even I used to get bored with writing them.
And then one day the light bulb went on. I started thinking about what I liked in other writers' work versus my own, and I noticed other writers were actually telling A Story.
Not that having sex and going to brunch isn't terrific stuff.
Not that having sex and going to brunch isn't terrific stuff.
Right, and then the ex of one shows up at the table, needing his hep, and it turns out there are unresolved issues/needs...and, whoa, conflict.
I found that when I wrote my last story, if I came up with a pair, then thought of internal conflict, worked on the hook, external conflict came naturally, so I work on pairs first, with internal conflict in mind...
How do you work?
OMG I am over my head without floaties. I need to hit the book.
Not that having sex and going to brunch isn't terrific stuff.
Right, and then the ex of one shows up at the table, needing his hep, and it turns out there are unresolved issues/needs...and, whoa, conflict.
You just can't help telling a story, can you? You've got that story-telling gene....
I work on pairs first, with internal conflict in mind...
How do you work?
The characters usually come to me in pairs. It's not like I deliberately set out to create Odd Couple opposites -- and by now I don't even know if I do it consciously -- but the characters seem to develop alongside each other.
Even working from someone else's characters -- fan fiction would be an example -- I tend to consider what these guys have in common, where they differ, and emphasize those traits.
Everything for me begins with the character -- but that's true of my reading as well. I'll put up with a lot of nonsense if I really like the characters.
You've got that story-telling gene....
I think it's the dominant one--and one we share. *g*
I'll have you know I just used the last of my Christmas gift certificate money to add to your income, by the way. Yes, well, it's about time! And thank you!
I'll have you know I just used the last of my Christmas gift certificate money to add to your income, by the way. Yes, well, it's about time! And thank you!
That's very nice of you. Thank you! But you know, you only have to ask. I've certainly enjoyed enough of your stories!
Another stalking Josh Lanyon fan here! I agree on the internal/external conflict theory of Josh's. When I write my M/M I think my best characters are the one with where they both have an internal flaw or a problem that affects the relationship in a slightly negative way (all couples have them!)and then an external conflict occurs to magnify that flaw or to appear to. Misconception is a great conflict as well.
I like misconception too, but only when it's real and lasting and based on something intrinsic, like 'you're a priest?!!!'
Not like I saw you drinking coffee with her, which you can clear up in like two seconds, but something bigger.
'OH! An Anglican priest, which means, what? Explain that again in terms of celibacy please, and don't leave anything out.' There can be a lot of different conflicts here, but it's basically a misconception. If he's a catholic priest, he's made a vow of celibacy. Game over, presumably. An anglican may have other issues but no vow. Game starts... I hope I'm not totally insulting anglicans or catholics or whatever... mea culpa. Still the shock of the collar, the primary misconception is good for a lot of chase me/catch me.
Abstractrx
the shock of the collar, the primary misconception is good for a lot of chase me/catch me.
Whoa. A new sub-genre. Inspirational M/M.
When I write my M/M I think my best characters are the one with where they both have an internal flaw or a problem that affects the relationship in a slightly negative way (all couples have them!)and then an external conflict occurs to magnify that flaw or to appear to.
It's very effective when you can get the mirror internal/external thing to happen. I admit I'm not particularly good at that.
And of course this is a mutual fan club because I love all your characters.
the shock of the collar, the primary misconception is good for a lot of chase me/catch me.
Crap.I'm doing that.
JK
But I love a good anglican drama. Sadly no one else does.
I do! I'd read anything you'd write, Lisabea, you fiesty thing.
Read Quod Tam Sitio? (am I allowed to say that?)
First off, Great post and Dreaded Topic... I don't know how strong readers consider my plots but I will be the first to admit that 'conflict' as a term is beyond intimidating. I have been told (recently) that a story I was working on needed 'conflict' and a 'black moment,'and while the short story had been accepted by one publisher(it went under), in order for me to give it a new home, I had to do some work on the light and carefree tale.
Um, well it's month 2 of rewriting the tale and now that short story is swelling into a novel, and getting pretty good. I liked the orginal, but I am loving the reworked version.
I don't know enough about the details of the craft to say that 'conflict' is more important or critical in novels and novels than it is in short stories, but i can say that it is highly important.
I don't know about other M/M writers or writers of any pairings/genres but the opportunities for discussing craft are few and far between...and with heavy writing schedules, I welcome every opportunity to hear essays such as yours...it's informative.
But I love m/m because there is no virgin/whore angst.
Sure m/m has this!
It's codified in a story if one of the couple transitions straight to gay.
The problem is most of those stories do not even bother to provide a believable internal conflict over this transition or provide the other experienced gay guy with any conflict over depending emotionally in someone involved with such an unstable situation.
At leaqst that is my view on that.
TP~I thought about that. I was simply stating why I love m/m.
Josh, I have to admit I've not read your work but this discussion really makes me want to. Interestingly enough, many romances do nothing for me (whatever the pairing) because they don't have enough 'story'. Story, of course, can be purely emotional but I long for books with an external plotline at least some of the time.
I'm not sure I agree there's no virgin/whore angst in m/m. LOL. You've always got the guy's first time with another guy aspect to explore or, as I chose to, a 'straight' guy who suddenly realises he's stuck in a relationship he thought was 'just a bit of fun' and doesn't know what to do about it. I find m/m gives you much more conflict to work with.
Crap.I'm doing that.
Now what have I told you, Sweetbea? There is nothing new under the sun. NADA. It's all in the execution. It's all about style and voice and approach.
And Inspirational M/M is a hot new genre!!! It's like....five minutes old.
Read Quod Tam Sitio? (am I allowed to say that?)
No.
*g*
I don't know enough about the details of the craft to say that 'conflict' is more important or critical in novels and novels than it is in short stories, but i can say that it is highly important.
Mya, I think that in a short story -- depending on the plot -- you can get away with either external or internal. Just as you don't need subplots, you don't necessarily need layers of conflict. You do need some conflict of some kind -- that I do believe.
My short story In a Dark Wood is about 7,000 words and it has internal and external conflict, so it can certainly be done in a short format. It won't always be necessary.
That said, there are those lovely little vignettes that exist merely to show a sex scene between two gorgeous guys. That's fine. But is that a story? Not in the sense that I mean. Same with PWP fan fiction, flash fiction, drabbles. Are they good writing? Do they convey a sense of "story?" Sure. But that's not really what I'm talking about. Most of us are in the market of reading and writing a more complex narrative. A certain amount of conflict is required.
I don't know about other M/M writers or writers of any pairings/genres but the opportunities for discussing craft are few and far between...and with heavy writing schedules, I welcome every opportunity to hear essays such as yours...it's informative.
Thank you. I appreciate hearing that.
It's codified in a story if one of the couple transitions straight to gay.
Yeah, I'd agree with that. Granted those stories are in the minority of what is written for the M/M market.
The problem is most of those stories do not even bother to provide a believable internal conflict over this transition or provide the other experienced gay guy with any conflict over depending emotionally in someone involved with such an unstable situation.
Yes. Again, I'd agree. Way too many, "Hey, I'm gay!" stories with no apparent difficulty -- and sometimes even no previous clue.
At leaqst that is my view on that.
TP~I thought about that. I was simply stating why I love m/m.
Well, and let's not forget the pleasure of any romance novel is the fantasy element.
I find m/m gives you much more conflict to work with.
Sharon, interestingly this was one of the reasons readers cited for liking M/M fiction (when I was interviewing for the writing book): that M/M offers an opportunity to explore conflicts and dynamics that straight romance rarely addresses -- that it's more intense and emotional.
T-Pig and Josh...
I wanted to weigh in on the I'm suddenly gay story...
I think that's more innocence lost and found than virgin/whore.
I like the suddenly gay angle iff
a) it's explained as an I love you and I'm not all about labels
b) I was open to this anyway
c) I'm not a closet hater, or a guy who's going to wake up tomorrow and say oops. I'm a stand up guy.
Then you get to explore the whole new virgin again thing, which, I think is different from the virgin/whore thing
I use actual rentboys, though none are harmed in this process, in the virgin/whore thing, as in:
What? you're a whore? Let me see if I can love you anyway.
Or just players, as in:
What? You're a whore! I hate that, you must change, and love only me.
::grumbling::
I still maintain there is a difference between mainstream m/f romance's obsessive focus on maintaining the sanctity of the lady bits and m/m gay angst.
But, whatever. I see what y'all are saying.
Lisabea, you are right!
Still I forgot that other all-important component of virgin/whore angst,
Mon Dieu, my love you are a whore, and I can never love you,
you must therefore go to a parisienne garret and die of consumption.
Lisabea, this doesn't happen in M/M , does it? Well, maybe it does, but not because of the sanctity of bits. I'd love to continue this discussion with you because it's making me think, and giving me new conflict to play with... Meet you someplace else sometime?
Abstractrx
the sanctity of bits
I still say that the Straight/Gay storyline is generally used this way. Several I have read seemed focused on the straight guy getting bent over and then this whole "whore" thing kicks in.
Especially is really bad stories where suddenly the guy is acting all different and dressing better because he "discovered" his Ghey side.
I adhere to the same rule in fiction that I do in real life -- what does not kill me makes me stronger. (Or in some cases, makes me stranger but that's another post...) I've found my characters can't really grow or evolve without some adversity thrown their way. And hey what better adversity than a combination of external circumstances causing internal strife?
For example -- it might have been nice to let my couple from Blue Ruin have some peace and light after the crazy drama that went down in book one, but well that would have also been highly boring! So for book two, I did indeed lull them into a false sense of security with some sweet fluff (or well, sweet fluff by my standards.) Then all hell broke loose when I brought in another love interest. I myself struggled with the consequences and wanted to kick the Muse's ass for doing this to my boys, but my characters and I all came out of that first draft the stronger and wiser for it.
I feel like a real sadist at times, putting myself, my characters, and ultimately my readers through the ringer, but my better work comes out of such scenarios. And in spite of romance readers saying they want that HEA fantasy, it seems readers find the HEA all the sweeter when the characters must work for it. With that being said, I do feel that m/m readers are more open to shades of gray and a "soap opera" approach than even the most "nontraditional" het romance readers. This is why I've found writing yaoi (which is about as angsty as it gets in m/m erotic romance) to be so liberating -- it allows me to explore relationship conflicts that aren't so readily resolved. Give a het romance reader a dubious HEA or HFN and they may throw the book across the room. Give a yaoi girl a dubious HEA, HFN, or heck even an unhappy ending, and I promise you, we will come back for more like the angst junkies that we are!
I still maintain there is a difference between mainstream m/f romance's obsessive focus on maintaining the sanctity of the lady bits and m/m gay angst.
But, whatever. I see what y'all are saying.
Well, yes, you're right. There are most certainly societal expectations for women that do not exist for men. And of course these come into play in our own concepts of self -- and in who we allow ourselves to love.
At least I think that's what you're saying.
I wanted to weigh in on the I'm suddenly gay story...
I think that's more innocence lost and found than virgin/whore.
I like the suddenly gay angle iff
a) it's explained as an I love you and I'm not all about labels
b) I was open to this anyway
c) I'm not a closet hater, or a guy who's going to wake up tomorrow and say oops. I'm a stand up guy.
Let us never forget that fiction is not real life, and there are effective tropes in fiction that are werry werry (that's my Elmer Fudd immitation) unwikley.
But I've read some of these scenarios in some of my (not so secret guilty pleasure) favorite fan fiction, and it works -- it works well. Even movingly. But is it realistic? Well, no. But let's not get into THAT.
I still say that the Straight/Gay storyline is generally used this way. Several I have read seemed focused on the straight guy getting bent over and then this whole "whore" thing kicks in.
Very effective especially in historical fiction where the ethereally beautiful youth was all set for a career in priesthoodom.
And in spite of romance readers saying they want that HEA fantasy, it seems readers find the HEA all the sweeter when the characters must work for it.
Absolutely. There's nothing more satisfying than when It All Works Out.
Thanks for posting, Katrina. Good thoughts.
"And in spite of romance readers saying they want that HEA fantasy, it seems readers find the HEA all the sweeter when the characters must work for it."
I don't think there's ever been any doubt about that. The problem is when writers start writing stories, call them 'romance' but then don't deliver on the HEA.
I don't doubt that there are readers who agree with you in enjoying stories without HEAs. I just don't any. :)
The whole point of it being sweeter if there's serious (internal) conflict is that you can be sure that all that suffering will be rewarded by a HEA. That's the whole attraction of romance for pretty much everybody I know.
If that certainty is taken away I personally will not be interested in reading it. Unhappy endings abound in real life, I don't want that in my leisure reading.
I'm really concerned about labeling. I don't mean to say other stories shouldn't be written, but as a romance reader I expect a HEA and if a story doesn't have that I don't think a (love) story should be labeled as 'romance'.
GrowlyCub,
I actually prefer HEA's myself. I just tend to take a thorny and twisted path getting there! LOL And it seem m/m readers allow for more thorns than my het readers did. (Which warrants all sorts of socioanalysis regarding m/m vs. het but Josh has already touched on that a bit...)
I'm really concerned about labeling. I don't mean to say other stories shouldn't be written, but as a romance reader I expect a HEA and if a story doesn't have that I don't think a (love) story should be labeled as 'romance'.
I keep swearing I'm not going to post, as I'm noted for derailing perfectly nice conversations (moi?). But. Sometimes the HFN is more than fine. It depends upon the authors ability to deliver. I believe I called it the manly ending. I don't require church bells and doves cooing for my romances to be happy. Just a hint that these men are together, willing to work it out.
But that's me. And I'm weird.
Katrina,
I'm all for thorny. :) I love what they used to call angsty. The more emotionally wrenching the better, but it has to be something that can be overcome and I have certain buttons that will ruin a story for me, although it all depends on the writer's ability to make me suspend my disbelief.
Lisabea,
I should have written HEA/HFN instead of just HFN. I was particularly referring to stories that are promoted as romance, but where the couple does not have any kind of future together at the end.
Sorry to be unclear.
I'm really concerned about labeling. I don't mean to say other stories shouldn't be written, but as a romance reader I expect a HEA and if a story doesn't have that I don't think a (love) story should be labeled as 'romance'.
Interesting. Some of the great love stories of all time don't have happy endings. So are they still romances? And how definite does the happy ending have to be to qualify as a romance? What if it appears to be happy but no guarantees?
Vewy, Vewy interesting. I know it's vewy unwikewy.
But that's why I read romance. At the heart of all romantic stories, and I would love to spend, like, a sleeping bag campfire weekend with all my favorite writers and bloggers out there just to try not to come to blows over this, is the notion of being loved for one's self. The inside bits. Not the boy bits or the girl bits.
Het romance is driven by this...
The BBW who is heroic and saves the day and the gorgeous dude who loves her just as she is but thinks twice about it because of his friends
The blue stocking and the incorigeable rake who is helplessly in her thrall but doesn't want to be because he needs a wealthy wife
The prairie school teacher spinster who thinks she's past it and the cowboy who loves the twinkle in her eye but doesn't see himself as worthy
There are a million zillion variations on this theme, and they come with HEAs HFNs or (NHAAs Not happy at all.)
That's why, when quasimodo sits among the gargoyles and asks himself 'why was I not made of stone like these' we cry.
Sure, we know, we KNOW, that Esmerelada isn't going to move into a double wide with him and have kids. But we wanted her to. Our hearts break for him, and people like him, Cyrano, Pagliachi, Wiley Coyote. And Don't tell me you didn't see that coming. That's conflict, interior, exterior, and in and out the ladybits.
LisaBea, guys just don't understand the sacred thing about ladybits. I try not to post too, but I can't seem to fricking help myself.
Josh,
I do not consider Gone With the Wind a romance. It's a love story. When I speak of labeling, I refer to how it has been used in the last 60 odd years for marketing purposes.
There seems to be a trend to put the label 'romance' on the spine of books that do not have a HEA/HFN, and only some barely there romantic elements, due to the fact that romance sells.
I think that's not a smart move long term. I know I won't buy any more books from publishers or authors who mislabel books in that manner.
I do not consider Gone With the Wind a romance. It's a love story. When I speak of labeling, I refer to how it has been used in the last 60 odd years for marketing purposes.
So the traditional definition -- the traditional marketing defintion of romance requires a happy ending? I tell you I learn stuff every day.
And you're seeing the defition changing -- or maybe it's just a marketing ploy to label stuff as romance when it fact these stories are a variety of things: erotic tales, genre fiction with romantic elements? Or is this where the whole romantica thing comes in? I admit to being unclear about the labels on much of the romance-oriented books published.
But then that's a good thing because it leads to more discussion and more communication.
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