Today's Topic:
Forced Fantasies
Forced fantasy, ravishment fantasies, even the old boss/secretary genre trope so popular in earlier category romances - what's hot and what's not? Is it anti feminism? Is it a way for women to deal with 'sex-guilt'. Is it an out dated / dying theme in our current society? Do men have ravishment fantasies -- although I guess they would fall into the femdom category? Do you see ravishment/forced/kidnap fantasies as part of the BDSM genre in romance or something separate? Does it float your boat, or is it all just verging on too close to rape for you?
17 comments:
Hi Anne, I know that capture fantasies are a genre that I'm not well read in, but I can imagine it's attraction.
In my stories, I like to write women with some sexual experience rather than virgins, and I like them to be as equally involved in the sex as the men.
I'll be interested to hear other opinions about forced ravishment. I know this group has them. Opinions, I mean. :-)
Good topic and one that's been on my mind for a while. I enjoy a well written forced sex fantasy-- because most authors use the idea between consenting adults who know it's an enactment of a fantasy--with rules in place. That said, there is that part of me that misses those Lustful Turk days. *sigh* I'm not like the other girls.
I've been raped, but the funny thing is-- I enjoy being in forced fantasy sequences-- because I trust the person I'm with and because we've set up the circumstances before we even begin. For me, it's giving me a chance to let go and let someone else guide and direct the sex play--even to the fact that they can boss me around.
For men, it's the same way, I figure. Yes, technically it's fem-dom but men can be raped by men or women. So, it's more of how you view the fantasy and how it's written.
Unfortunately, sometimes forced sequences can be done badly and it brings about bad memories. Sometimes it's nothing more than badly disguised rape and we are told we're not to be titillated by such rough and tumble sex ideas. I'm prolly going to get people cranky on this-- but honestly it comes down to two things-- is it play or real and in romance novels-- is it presented well? Give me a truly well done forced sex fantasy and watch me wiggle and get hot and bothered. Give me something that was an excuse for doing a rape scene, and watch me throw the book.
You've got to remember-- I loved reading Kathleen Woodweiss. *grins*
I like forced seductions. She wants him, but doesn't want to admit to herself (or him) for whatever reason that she does. He has the knowledge, experience and expertise to get her body to over-ride her mind. To me, that's really sexy in a romance. Not for every plot, nor for every scene, but for that first one, to get them over the hump? Oh yeah. It's like the whole good girls don't but deep within is a bad girl screaming to get out and he's just the man to set her loose.
I don't like rape scenes, or scenes where the male is all dominant to the point of coming across as an a-hole. So, the male's attitude has a lot to do with it as well. Playfully seductive, or really intense got-to-have-you-now heroes are great. You know you want me, I know you want me and I'm going to prove it because I'm Mr. Universe and no woman can deny me bull crap, books going to do a flyer against the wall.
I'm in most agreement with Cynnara, but not completely. Force is rape. End of story. What you talk about is deliberately giving up power; Safe. Sane. Consensual. You have in no way taken away your ability to stop the scenario at any time. When people talk about "forced seduction", a complete oxymoron, they're not talking about that. They're talking about the captured-forced-to-have-sex thing. Rape. Worst example of this is Christine Feehan in Dark Magic. The male character rapes his intended mate. No matter how many flowery words she wrote to describe the scene it was rape. He brutalized her; the author even described the bruises. Then, two pages later, they were having "normal" sex. Basically not even an hour after the rape.
I'm a victim of spousal rape. Forced scenes do nothing for me. BDSM is completely different. When someone deliberately surrenders to someone they trust, they don't give up the right to say no to anything that's done. By definition, being forced takes away the ability to say no. There is no grey line for me on this one.
There, I probably offended. Sorry.
Melanie - disagreeing with the topic is perfectly fine, encouraged even. Humanity is a diverse group, and our views on everything are just as diverse, and in fact I would find it odd if there weren't people who said they hated it - what ever topic we discuss!
Commentors - don't be afraid to disagree/agree, but don't stoop to mudslinging and name calling when you can make a well worded, provoking statement instead.
I think it's a guilty pleasure. I have to admit that I both like reading and writing forced seduction, but I can readily see and agree to reasons why many women do not. I also don't like ALL forced seduction scenarios. It all ends up depending on the hero--or, rather, the aggressor since I've been writing lots of m/m lately--for me and the reasons that it happens, even if they're not known upfront. If he's just an evil lowlife, forget it. If he's compelling in some way--and these ways differ--then I can be into it.
Deep breath - IMO
Forced ravishment is rape. Forced seduction is rape. Rape is wrong.
So there'll never be any of these in any book I write.
However, a 'scene' where she consents to a seduction or a 'rape' scenario is fine if it's done the right way, even if he's a bit forceful and she loves it. But there has to be that consent, freely given, for me to enjoy that kind of scene.
Sex should always be consensual because it involves two people - at least.
I'm usually at the "wrong" end of this topic, which is why I was hesitant. I don't understand the appeal; never liked the pirate stories or so-called bodice rippers. Most of the time, when I speak on this topic, I'm told to get over myself and what I've been thru. That I'm allowing my hang-ups to interfere with a pleasurable thing.
For me, to seduce is to entice someone into doing something they want to do anyway for the mutual pleasure of all. To force is to do something against the wishes of another with no thought to anyone's pleasure but your own. By those definitions, you can't have a forced seduction. Complete opposites in my opinion.
I find it a little confusing that we seem to have come full circle in the romance genre. When I first started reading romance, there were the basic "bodice rippers" or the "secretary in love with the boss" stories. For the past two decades, romance had matured, bringing alpha females, beta males and equal partnerships into the forefront. Now we're back to the "bodice rippers", only maybe a little more sophisticated in the plot/location areas. I don't read these types of stories at all. I was bored with them twenty years ago; a well written one will bore me now - a horribly written one will offend me.
Ok, I'm not the most sensitive person with this topic and undoubtedly, I need therapy but when I was younger I thought that all romance novels revolved around the 'forced fantasy.' I mean those Historical Novels that I read were always about some lady, some princess, some helpless (but spunky)chick getting taken by some beefy Lord, Indian, Cowboy, whatever... To me there is a difference between forced rape and forced fantasies however. Someone brutally beating, hurting and psychologically degrading anyone (female/male) equals forced rape in my book. A forced fantasy is more of repressed person A is unravelled and revealed by person B. Why do I read it, when I myself suffered a touch of nonconsent when I was younger...because I'm a repressed ice queen with horrible social skills and I live for control. I think I like to read about people who confront something which is overpowering in its capacity to reveal the truth (sometimes sexuality, lonlieness, need, masochistic liking, humanity, etc.) because I am a soilder of control.
I don't know if I gave a good explain but here's a different analogy.
Forced Fantasy= The Piano (my all time favorite movie) Harvey Keitel is a force from which Holly Hunter's character cannot hide from, he breaks down her barriers and she cannot hide in her repressed shell. She then embraces her sexuality and wantoness with ferocity.
Forced Rape= The Accused (one of my most feared) To have been so brutally treaten, to be disbelieved and humilated in front of so many people, to have the revelation be a doubt of inner worth...not good.
Just my 5 cents.
I find it a challenge to create characters that would take part in such a scenario as a forced ravishment fantasy. I don't mind writing them especially if the story line calls for it. As long as there's that underlying understanding at some level it is consensual, as within a BDSM relationship,i.e. if things got too heated there's always the "safe word." My first "exposure" to this specific genre was the Angelique's series back in the 70's.
I recently discussed this issue with fellow author Ciar Cullen at her blog. I offered my own parameters that I follow when presenting "forced seduction" in my work. (Note, I personally feel this applies to any pairing, be it het, m/m, or m/f):
Here is how I define and present "forced seduction":
1. The focus is on the recipient's pleasure, not that of the seducer.
2. Not once does the recipient deny the seducer; rather, they try to deny their *desire* for the seducer, who can see straight through their sham.
3. The encounter results in a pleasurable experience for the recipient, resulting in orgasm and/or a state of arousal that leaves them wanting more.
4. If penetration occurs, it is only after the recipient has been prepared and, at some point during the "forced seduction", has consented to intercourse by either verbalizing or demonstrating their true desire.
5. Not once is the recipient given cause to fear for their life should they choose not to comply. The only weapon used against the recipient is their own repressed desire.
Now, I'll concede that point 5 is where things get sketchy and where I tread that fine line, as it is psychologically manipulative and could still be construed as a form of rape. Though that form of "mind fuck" is what I find so intriguing about "forced seduction" and why I've explored that theme (or its close cousin, "dubious consent") in my darker stories.
At least that is how I approach and define forced seduction. Some readers (including one male reader) felt the forced seduction scene in my first novel was rape, while more hardcore readers seemed disappointed that my alpha male was so polite! The majority of readers and reviewers, however, felt I handled the topic well and made it sexy, though honestly I feel I got away with it by making my lead male telepathic and thus able to see my lead female's true desires. My current WIP contains dubious consent, with seduction achieved through hypnosis after the subject is intructed to "do as you desire". (Yes, the beauty of the paranormal -- you can get away with more stuff...)
In the end, as with any edgy erotic scene, it's a matter of presentation on the author's end versus perspective from the reader's end. No two authors or readers will agree on where lines should be drawn, but I'll say that for me, that line is drawn when someone is truly forced to engage in sexual activity after they have clearly said NO and clearly do NOT desire their attacker. (Note my switch from "seducer" to "attacker".) For now, based on predominately positive reader and reviewer response, I'm comfortable exploring forced seduction within the parameters I've set and don't feel I'm promoting or glorifying rape.
Jet and Katrina have summed up my own feelings on the subject.
In fiction, especially m/m fiction I'm willing to cross boundaries as both a reader and writer that might normally squick me or send me screaming for the police in a real life.
For me there isn't a clear cut right and wrong especially when it comes to fiction, but I respect that others don't share that opinion.
The advent of e-publishing has opened up stories for every taste and I'm glad to be able offer and read books at each end of the spectrum.
IMHO, everyone has their "buttons" which a work of fiction can press. For buttons which are commonly held, having warnings on such fiction is appropriate to prevent people who have such buttons from being unnecessarily affected. Those who have those buttons have a right to have them and not have them pressed, and those who do not and are okay with those issues can read such works of fiction.
I also am a survivor of date rape and can understand people's issues towards things like "ravishment" in fiction. At the same token, anything and everything in a work that is erotic can be a button--heck, a work not being a HEA can be a button for some! This is why it's good to have reviews, blurbs, warnings, et cetera.
Just my $0.02 worth.
As others have mentioned, we all come with different hot buttons to our reading. Several people mentioned that a forced/rape fantasy is okay in BDSM since consent is implied in the BDSM relationship.
I find that interesting but - maybe I have not read the right kind of BDSM - I have a very visceral, very negative, as in getting physically ill, reaction when I attempt anything BDSM. Even with all the 'talk' about BDSM being consensual it never reads like that to me, never!
I recently read an excerpt by an author whose work I love and again, I was so disturbed I could never imagine reading the book.
Needless to say, I don't go there any more.
That said, I do enjoy the forced fantasy on occasion, but it's all in the execution and in the motivation of the characters and author.
One story that worked very well for me was 'Something Wild' by Shannon McKenna (to a lesser degree 'Meltdown'). I know several people who do not like these stories and consider them over the line.
One thing that struck me while reading the comments is the fact that so many of the posters have been raped.
It may just be that I'm naive or that the subject matter brings this out, but I wonder. I made it to 37 knowing only 1 woman (an American) personally to whom this has happened.
I'm European (have lived here for 10 years now) and I guess there could be two explanations, women over there do not talk about it as freely or it doesn't happen as often. I really wonder about that now.
Personally, I'm not a fan of forced fantasies, but then I've never been a fan of giving up control to anybody or anything, not even in play. For me there's just something too seedy, something teetering on that whole rape aspect that gives me the willies.
Now that's not to say I don't love reading a good bondage scene or even partaking in some roleplaying, but when it comes down to brass tax, I want to be able to call the shots and I want my heroines to be able to do the same.
For me I've always been a fan of the boy meets girl, girl falls for boy, boy sweetalks girl into bed and she goes because she want's to story.
Do men have ravishment fantasies -- although I guess they would fall into the femdom category?
It can be effectively handled within M/M fiction -- partly because of the competetive nature inherent within all (certainly most) man on man relationships.
But I think the key here is the term "forced seduction." Seduction implies that there's a certain amount of willingness on the part of the seduced -- it's not strictly force. That suppressed desire is the big difference -- the yearning for someone else to take control for a minute, take the responsibility (the guilt) -- between seduction and rape. Between getting what you secretly want -- and being brutalized against your will.
I love forced seduction and have written about it many, many times. BUT it should not be confused with what was known in the 70s and 80s as bodice rippers which many times had scenes of rape used as titillation.
To me, forced seduction is about a dark fantasy and can be from either genders point of view. Men can have a dark fantasy too. For another publisher, I have a series I call ‘Captive Illusions’ which looks into all sorts of dark fantasy. All the stories are about the heroines being ‘captured’ by the hero. The first one is really dark but when I started to write the second one in the same vein, the heroine took over. It was a total surprise and one of the reasons I’ve character driven stories.
And I think that one of the reasons it appeals so much to me is the fact I’ve always loved the ideal of being swept off my feet by a tall, dark handsome stranger. Throw a little hot sex in there and you have me every time.
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